Category: philosophy/religion topics
Well, I recently discovered this board. I have seen threads about angels, other posts about prayer, and a lot of other threads I didn't even care to look at. But I have been a christian for 4 years now. I have given my life to Jesus and, for anyone that would like to persicute me or criticize me, I'M NOT TURNING BACK! GOD LOVES ME AND I WILL PROCLAIM THE TRUTH OF JESUS! But, the real reason I've put up this thread is to ask if there are any christians. If there are, I'm working on a christian blog. But, besides that, if there ar any christians, introduce yourselvs, and tell me something about yourselves.
Whats good. My fiance and I both are on here and are Christians. I have been 1 a year and him 3 years. You can find them around but note most people on here are far from it so be careful smiley. Read your profile and like romans. Did a bible study at my church last fall on that book.
I am a Christian and proud of it! :) Hmmm... kinda makes me think of that Bible school song... "I am a C. I am a CH. I am a C-H-R-I-S-T-I-A-N..." lol
Yes, it does seem like a lot of people on here are not Christians and some are very vocal about their disbelief lol. I think all we can do is be kind to them anyway, and pray for them to find the truth we know is there.
I go to a nondenominational church at college, but was raised Lutheren if anybody cares. lol Personally, I don't see what the big deal is about denominations haha!
We are studying Second Timathy in Bible Study and church services right now.
And this topic wil probably draw them like ravinous ants to honey. I too am a Christian. I was agnaustic all my life. I attended various churches throughout the years. I always believed there was something more than humanity. I discovered the LDS church about seven years ago, and in all honesty the church and its beleifs just struck a chord in me. Now after mny years of study, prayer, personal experience and asking awkward questions I'm pleased to say I'm developing a testamony. I believe in God the Father, Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost. I understand about persecution, or should I say drastic misunderstanding. The church I belong to has quite a reputation for being misunderstood and misrepresented.
I'm a nondenominational Christian and I've had people attack me on here. It really doesn't bother me much, only because I know that the Bible says that if they persecute me, they are also persecuting Jesus.
I have been a Christian, as in, accepted Christ as my savior, for 5 years now. I was raised Catholic all my life and my family still practices those beliefs. So I am often criticized and told that I was brainwashed into false beliefs. So I pray for them, because there's really nothing more wonderful than discovering God's love and forgiveness and plan of salvation.
And yes, I will outwardly admit that some of the things I see on the boards horrify me, such as people proclaiming to be satanists and even saying the most horrible things about God. I'm sure some of you know what I'm talking about...
It also worries me to see how many so-called atheists there are, who not only state their opinions but also take to attacking those of us with different ideas and beliefs.
I am also a Christian. My testimony itself is rather long and confusing, but all I can say is that God has been faithful even when I haven't been.
Kate
for the record, it's agnostic, not agnaustic.
Yeah, you need to learn to spell around here. If you don't, people notice and will call you out on it. it's really annoying. It's okay to use internet slang, and curse like a drunken sailer, but don't you spell a word wrong ... don't you dare.
It saddens me to hear so many people talk about brainwashing when it comes to religion. While it's certainly true there's some of that going on, it frustrates me when people seak contention by saying such things without really understanding your own personal journey and religion. I venture only a minority of people from all the religions of the world have actually been anything near "brainwashed"
Sheeple! Brainwashed sheeple! They go bah ah ah ah ah ah ah!
We christians are not brainwashed! We speak the truth of God the father and Jesus christ! As for you, I respect you have different views than me, but that doesn't mean they are true! Jesus is lord!
also what is sad is that some Christians are not and judge with such hatred. Then people who see that and associate that to being saved don't see what God truly did by sending his son for us.
The thing that is most sad, and most unfortunate in my opinion, is that there are quite a few Christians out there who really do give us a bad name by being so judging towards others, and yes, forcing Christianity down their throats. It is our job to tell others about God's plan of salvation through His son Jesus Christ, and point them in the right direction. It's not our job to convict them of it and get them to believe. So we all get clustered into one big category because people see this and they think that that is the purpose of Christians. I can't begin to count how many people I have heard say that they turned away from Christianity because of a bad impression they were given. God loves us all unconditionally, and even though He wants us all to accept His free gift of salvation, our free will is something that He still didn't take away from us. He wants us to come to Him out of our own desire. Not even He forces us to accept Him. So why should we force Him upon other people and cause them to be put off and turn away from a loving father? Just like He would like us to be, we should really accept nonbelievers with an open heart and pray that they will soon discover His wonderful love and gift to us, instead of trying to force it upon them.
thanks for the laughs, guys. that's all I'll say here, considering this board is family friendly.
Musicgirl: I salute you.
Much of Christianity has a checkered past. That, coupled with the unfortunate Christians who do give us a bad name by being judgmental, ignorant, closed-minded and contentious ... it's no wonder some people get the wrong impression. I've had countless debates on here with certain individuals who, no matter what I say choose only to see the evil certain members of our religion have portrayed. I can't say I blame them, even if some of them are doing it mainly to be contentious themselves. What they, and many others seem unwilling or unable to do is separate the religious from the religion. It's a fact, humans are, in our mortal state subject to the "natural man". Translation: We're "only human". People have done terrible things in the name of God. But that isn't God's fault. It's due to man's lust for power, greed and personal desires. That coupled with a bible which has been translated countless times to the point that some of the meaning has been altered. When all those terrible things in history happened, 90 percent of the population or more couldn't think for themselves. They were largely uneducated, and they didn't have access to the scriptures to study them. So you had essentially a ruling class of people who could do whatever they wanted. No wonder there was corruption.
Now a days, things are better, but there's still a lot of evil going on in the church at large. But that evil is being purpitrated by man, not by God. There's nothing more frustrating than someone who thinks just because they've accepted Jesus, it's all over and they can do whatever they want. When we accept Christ, we take upon ourselves his name and must strive to follow him.
In the end, CHristianity and its principles are good. They are here to help people; to make life on earth as fulfilling and blessed as possible. They teach compassion, long-suffering, kindness, understanding, love and tolerance. How unfortunate that so many misunderstand or corrupt Christ's teachings.
I will weigh in on this personally.
I did convert probably 15 years ago now. However, I never abandoned my post as an engineer or intellectually dropped the ball. Honestly, faith and science are entirely mutually exclusive of one another and mixing the two = profound dyssentary of the mind, among other things.
But there are two things I want to address:
Some people imagine Christians are the only ones being "picked on".
Far far far from it. People who know my brother works for the USDA and is a marine biologist have given him a pretty hard time about some things. By donning my Coast Guard uniform, I know full well there are people from the right-wing wackos who talk about FEMA death camps, to the left-wing wackos from Berkeley who deeply resent us. I am also aware that the nation to whom I've sworn allegiance has, as the other Guardian has well put it, a checkered past. Pretty checkered, actually.
So what that means is I don't play pretty boy victim and go boo-hoo-hoo when people get upset over that.
This persecution complex among a lot of groups, Christians being only one very vocal bunch, is probably more damaging to that group than any real persecution ever could be. You who think you are persecuted on a message bord are boxing shadows. Have so-called anti-theists taken away your jobs? Hung you with thumb screws? Have they removed you from your homes?
I don't seem to see them doing any of those things. If you don't want people to misperceive your own character and your own merits, just show them what you got where you're at. Just do good work, and make the best of things. There are a lot more faith-articulate people on here, and are probably a lot more deeply-seated in it than I am. But honestly, I'm not picking on you, I are one. But victimhood and a persecution complex will kill you every single time. I admit none of what I'm saying is really faith-based, it's just survival.
Not all of us are Christians with no questions at all about either the texts, the contexts, the structure and a lot of other components to it. That shouldn't surprise any of you either. You devote yourself to one form of service or another, maybe you volunteer locally for an organization, I myself with the Coast Guard. Does that immediately make us become blind to political problems? Structural problems? Of course not. In fact there are lots of times where good management = a revisiting of some rather sacred cows and doing the dirty work on figuring out what went wrong when and how, and how to make sure this does not happen again. In fact people who do this in many places, are often quite devoted, not called doubters or what have you.
Like Cody, I myself have a serious problem with the stoning incidents in the Old Testament and Qur'An texts. I equally have a problem with the situation-dependent arguments of the preachers who support it. After all, didn't the post-World-War-II Nazi trials demonstrate for all the world, that situational ethic does not apply? They who committed those attrocities defended them like martyrs all the way to the end of the rope.
And today, we have people (some of whom are family and friends of mine), who serve in the Middle East and try and cause these terrorist groups who stone women and girls to death to desist. Sorry, but legitimizing stoning in any way shape or form is legitimizing terrorism. Look at the so-called crimes for which lapidation (execution by stoning until dead) was the prescribed method of execution. Yes I have a serious problem with it, and yes I will do my duty and support the United States in stopping Christian fundamentalists, should they themselves start lapidating because of reconstructionist beliefs, as others have done in Islamic nations. I would consider that an honor. Fundamentalist reconstructionism is the problem, not Christianity or Islam.
If our faith is to stand, someone is going to have to man it up and be honest about how things must have gone horribly wrong, what needs to be done to modify the situation within the faith community and do the deed once for all.
Nobody who is not totally dedicated to situational ethics, to gulag proportions, can defend lapidation in any form as prescribed by either the QurAn or the Old Testament.
Invite your neighborhood fundamentalist of whatever persuasion who supports it to sit down and watch a lapidation on Youtube. They are aplenty, they are in full color. I can't see it, but even the sound was enough I knew what was going on. It is sick, and so are those who would under any shape or form support it. The real strong ones are those who oppose this disease on humanity in general and the faith in particular.
Somebody without a persecution complex, or an us-against-them victim mentality, or a situational-ethics persuasion and with some amount of profound knowledge in the faith will have to dissect that problem, where things went wrong, and how we are going to repair that one. I have high hopes of the Google AI, an unbiased artificial intelligence, translating the original scripts.
I was a translator for the Federal Government in the latter part of the 1980s, for Immigration. So I actually know a little bit about it. And the types of clarifications that have to be provided from what we get as translation sometimes, well, if we required that level of clarification at Immigration, we would have been held accountable for negligence or fraud.
I understand we know technical accuracy and they very obviously did not. But this is precisely why I think the Google AI Translation project is so important. Anything of value can be subjected to rigorous and objective examination, and without crying boo hoo. I simply say we have not properly affected this. Neither us nor the atheists, nor those who now call themselves anti-theists.
Perhaps items like lapidation beforehand could just be swept under a rug, but not anymore. Lapidation has become commonplace since the 1970s in some parts of the world, and ddue to the terrorist nature of fundamentalist reconstructionism would probably become commonplace here if they were given the proper lack of social restraint.
Nothing at all good comes from it ever, and it is my opinion there are probably some profound mistakes that need correcting. That definitely puts me into some rather interesting categories in the minds of many but I can currently arrive at no other conclusion.
I say the following for the benefit of the original poster and others who may cry persecution. I will not cry or boo hoo or throw a fit if either you brand me an infidel, or Cody finds holes in my thinking. I would contest the infidel part, but do recognize holes in my thinking. I simply haven't yet plugged them with anything viable. But I chose to put this out ther, just as I don't get mad if a fundamentalist throws a little hissy after learning I'm not a six-day creationist . I didn't have to put it out here, by doing so I already acknowledged acceptance of what may come, or nothing at all.
You would do well, and be stronger, if you adopted the same, no matter your position on something.
I am probably considered more of a fundamentalist Christian than many on here would feel comfortable with, but I am throwing it out there anyway. Do I believe that mocking is persecution? Possibly, if reputation is all you have, but like Leo has said previously either on this board or another, is that unless you have truly lost something (your home, your spouse, your body due to whippinggs/beatings/whatever, family, your job, and even your full reputation) you have not truly been persecuted. If one takes the Bible literally, can one picture the apostle Paul or Peter saying "If you have been mocked, stand up! Take pride because you are being persecuted for my sake - your self-esteem will suffer!"? Christ did, however, mention losing house and land and sisters and parents because of the Gospel. What many Christians - both moderates and fundamentalists - tend to forget is that earth is not our home. Making the earth a tangible temporary paradise - free of poverty and sickness and "persecution" - is not our job! Should Christians be concerned about earthly life? Absolutely, but not with the mindset that this is all their is.
"Be in the world, but not "of" the world."
One thing I'd like to say to those who aren't Christians is that we call our faith a relationship, not a religion. There is a very good reason for that, and that reason is because our works aren't what get us to Heaven, it's our love and acceptance of Jesus that gets us to Heaven. So as Christians like me go out and tell others, let's remember that, because I think that's very important for others to know. I certainly respect those who are Atheist, and I also believe that it isn't our job to condemn people when they are doing wrong, but it is important to tell them how God feels about certain things, not with condemnation, but with love and compassion. Jesus loves everybody and wants everyone to go to Heaven.
I agree with you, elumination. Christians don't have a so-called "religion", we have a relationship with God. That's why whenever someone asks "What religion are you?", I respond "I have no religion. I have a relationship with God."
That's an interesting way of looking at it. I always considered them one in the same. The relationship comes from how we observe and follow. Sadly there are a great many Christians who "say" they follow Jesus and say they're "saved", yet do all manner of iniquity. Our works might not be our salvation, but by those works will we demonstrate our willingness to follow him. You can't be baptised (something a lot of churches don't do) say you accept Christ, then go out and rob, screw around, abuse etc ... Accepting The father is to accept the Son. Accepting the Son and having a relationship with him means striving to live his teachings. So many churches ask nothing of their followers. You go on sunday, listen to someone preach, then leave and never think about it again until the next sunday. Maybe you get a little more reverent during Christmas and Easter. Closet Christians, I call them. In the end, there's more to being a Christian than words.
Before I get flamed I feel I must point out that I'm generalizing. I'm not speaking about any specific person. And these same sentiments hold true for all religions, CHristion or otherwise.
And this is why I couldn't ever be a part of *any* type of organized religion; I mean, I refused to follow my parents teachings half the time, and they were right beside me, living and breathing in the same house. I certainly am not going to follow the teachings of someone who supposedly exists, according to a book, or to other people around me. Even if God shoed up in front of me, right now, and proved his existence, I still wouldn't worship him or live my life by his standards. Because what some people don't seem to realize is that those of us who do not follow a religion, whether we're agnostic or atheist, it's more than just the fact that we don't believe God exists. we just don't see why we should have to follow the teachings of someone just because he's supposedly a higher power. Half of learning and becoming wiser is just to live life head on, make mistakes every once in awhile, and take the lesson each experience gives you.
I'm sorry, but saying, "I don't have a religion, I have a relationship with god", should get you punched in the face. What a smug and self-righteous thing to say. That doesn't make you look holy, it makes you look like an ass.
Of course you view it as a relationship with god. The word relationship refers to a social organization of two or more people. Yours happens to be with this being you call God. That's all well and good.
However, that isn't what you were asked. You were asked, what religion are you? This means that the questioner wants to know which god you have a relationship with, they are already assuming that you have a relationship with one, they now need to narrow it down from a cast of thousands.
Plus, the word religion means a relationship with god. That's what it is. So you're saying the equivalent of, "I don't have a cake, I have a light and fluffy sponge-like baked good which is covered in a sugary sweet coating of varying flavors".
I swear, if I ever asked someone what religion they were, and they replied that they didn't have a religion, they had a relationship with god, I would first say, "well no shit sherlock, read a dictionary lately"; then I'd punch them in the face. Cuz you deserve it.
I have to actually agree with Cody here... oh wow! LOL
I once read an article that took apart the saying "I don't have a religion; I have a relationship with God" written by a Christian pastor. Wish I could find it, but it's worth the read.
Well, I don't have a religion. I stand by what I said on that one.
Then you don't have a relationship with god. They are the same thing. Either you have a religion and a relationship with god, or you have neither. I do not have a relationship with god, thus I do not have a religion. That's how it works, it this little thing we like to call the basic definition of words.
Save for the punching in the face, I too must agree with Lightning. And he denies the existence of miracles.
I'm just kidding. That said, I have to say I find the whole religion versus relationship thing simply mincing words. I think it's easy to get caught up in trifling matters.
It would be very interesting to see someone's reaction if the father, son or even an actual angel appeared to them. It happens from time to time. The problem with such a visitation is it then requires much less faith to believe. If you know for certain that God exists, you are then accountable for your actions that much more.
I think the enimies of God, or those who, even if he proved himself to them, would turn away will have the hardest time in the end. Not because they'll be automatically damned for their unbelief - they won't - but because they'll have a much harder time accepting things as they are. See, I feel we religious types have it a lot easier than atheists. If we're wrong, it won't matter. If there's nothing else at the end of mortal existence, we won't even realize it since we'll cease to exist. But if there truly is anything else after this life and an atheist not only prepared for obliveon, but also actively struggled against the idea of there being anything or anyone after, how much harder will it be for them when that time comes?
I figure, why take the chance? It's true I have a testamony of the existence of God which certain people can't wait to pick apart. But if I'm wrong, I'll have at least lived a pleasant and fulfilling life consisting of standards and values which are slowly becoming abominations in the site of the world. I'm not saying atheists can't live a good life - they can and largely do. But Ocean Dream, Lightning, answer me this. If tomorrow you died, and you then found yourself ... somewhere else, what would you do?
Really, you're going to use pascal's wager as your argument. Sigh, no one ever comes up with something new I guess.
Ok first, if I do end up somewhere else, I would then queery the proprietor of this somewhere else why he did all the evil things he did, why his so called divine word is so rife with mistakes, and why he allowed horrible things to happen to people he professed to love. I would then tell said proprietor that he is wicked and I refuse to bow down and worship him. And, since souls in any form have no nerve endings, I would take my place in this lake of fire, and enjoy the rest of my eternity among people exactly like me.
Now, let me ask you something in return. What are you going to do if you should come to die, and your god does actually exist, and you stand before him, and the first question out of his mouth is "why is it you believed in me because it was easy? Why did you go with the safe bet? Was your faith so weak that you had to resort to a wager of which is safer to actually believe in me"? To which I imagine you will reply, "but I believed in you for a lot of different reasons, I saw your signs and your works. I saw your miracles and heard your voice in answer to my prayers". To which god will wonder, "then what need have you of pascal's wager? Why did it enter into your thoughts? Why did you not think it blasphomous to think that the only reason anyone would believe something is because it is easiest and safest"? What will you say to him then
Of course none of this will happen, since the soul was invented by man for wish fulfillment.
blind guardian, for you to even assume we'd simply see the higher power many call god and go, "oh, guess he exists" is absolutely ludacris. however, it does prove the point we've been trying to drive religious folks towards, which is that accepting something without any questions is incredibly damaging to society.
I take serious issue with the fact you, along with billions of others I'm sure, would freely embrace something without questioning said being.
to answer whether I as an antitheist would change my mind upon seeing him or her, the answer is a resounding no. if anything, my values would become ten times stronger cause there isn't a satasfactory answer he could give me (or those who share my beliefs).
I'm with the last few posters. I'll take my chances. That's what I do in life as it is, so why wouldn't that extend to faith? *grins*. But if it turns out I'm wrong, and I get burned, as chelsea said, my beliefs would only become ten times stronger. I wouldn't want to live life or death by the standards of someone who would do that to people who choose logic over the bible. And I'd rather spend an eternity in the lake of fire with my fellow atheists than spend eternity in heaven, which sounds boring anyway by the way, with the people whose self-worth is so low that they'd let a book, and/or a priest, dictate how they live.
Boring, and the music sucks too. Just a bunch of harp-strumming. Lol.
Hey now, I like harps. And some of those angels look hot. If only lusting wasn't a sin, I could go to heaven and lust after the angels and listen to harps. I wouldn't mind that. But then, fornicating is a sin too, so I could lust, but it would never be satisfied. I'd never get to sleep with one of the angels. So I'd just have to listen to the harps. Fuck! I'm going to hell, where I can lust and fornicate all I want, I'm sure I can find someone who has a harp there.
I guess I just have a much different prospective on things than the rest of you. It's because I ask questions, study and look beyond the words to the meaning behind them that I've come to the decision I have. I do not believe in blind faith. I believe in judging for myself. You people just can't come to terms with the fact other people believe differently. You make it sound like we're all so stupid. You disregard everything I say, sometimes with a skillful, well thought out counter, other times with supreme arrogance. I can certainly understand why all of you are so against religion. If I had the same perspective as you, I'd probably feel the same way. You look at the bible and see nothing but wickedness and lies. . I look at the bible and see how human hands bend translation. Yes I believe in the Book of Mormon and other scriptures. But that isn't without careful consideration. The reason I believe is because much of what would have bothered me about the bible has been cleared up in my studies. I understand why some of these things happened. You people obviously don't, and that's fine. I find it interesting that all these discussions seem to utterly ignore all other religions. Even if CHristianity was wrong, how can all of you honestly look at the world and thing NONE of what was ever written about any extraordinary power is wrong. Could so many accounts of a higher power all be complete and utter lies? Belief in God (or A God, or pantheon of Gods) has been around since the very origins of human history. Yes some of them have some destructive beliefs. But how can you dismiss everything as complete and utter hockum? I can understand an anti-christ sentiment, but I can't fathom the dismissal of every religion that ever was.
Why not, you dismiss all but one of them, why is it so hard for you to fathom dismissing just one more? Really, your religion isn't that important as compared to the thousands of others. I mean, look at egypt, they did some important stuff, that whole founding civilization thing. Or the romans, they did a whole heck of a lot for western civilization. Your religion, and I'm being generous here, has only been around for 2000 years. Wait, no, I won't be generous, your religion has been around since the mid 19th century. So why is it so unimaginable to you to dismiss just one more religion than you already do? Really, its just one more.
and in answer to the rest of your post, let me ask you this. why, if you are reading the word of an all powerful, all knowing being, do you need translations? Why do we need priests or preachers or popes? Why do we need someone else to explain the word of God? If God is all powerful, and all knowing, then obviously he has the knowledge of these mistranslations, and the power to stop them. My question to you is, why didn't he?
and before you say, "well the bible was written by humans, but inspired by god", let me point out, I'm not asking why the people got it wrong, I'm asking why God let it happen. If I were delivering an all important message, upon which I was going to decide whether I was going to throw my children into a lake of fire or bring them up to heaven, I'd make damn sure every single word of my message was absolutely correct and well translated. Why didn't God?
Because "god" is a bungler. Just look at Genesis. He created man, then he said "oops, I fucked up! I'm gonna wipe all you jerks out with a flood, and we're gonna start all over again." Lol.
Wow heaven is boring? I guess I will be bored forever smiley. I can not wait to go there. Thank you Jesus.
Well, either way.. I've already got my bags packed. I'm ready to be bored for all eternity! lol..
I'm told that there are thrones in heaven. Hopefully one will not have to pay to use them. Think of the agony of trying to hold it for all eternity.
Perhaps it won't be boring for you guys, since you'll all be there together. Well, either way, I won't have to worry about that. Because if I'm wrong, and there is a heaven, I won't be going there anyway because I never believed, and if not, if I'm right, well, then, nobody is going. Either way, I'm good to go.
Some of your perceptions on the bible, heaven and hell are interesting. With such perceptions, it's no wonder you can't take Christianity seriously.
Nope, I'm afraid I can't take seriously stories about a talking snake, or a voice coming from a burning bush, a woman magically transforming into a pillar of salt, etc. Oh and Joseph Smith seeing quote unquote Reformed Egyptian text when he looked at a couple of rocks in a hat over his face.
Ohhhhh, I see you've been watching South Park.:) That's okay Impricator. The nice thing about our current society is we can all believe what we choose. When you put things in that perspective, I definately see why they'd be absurd to you. I merely have a much different perspective.
Better South Park than the 700 Club. Is that even still on the air?
Sadly, I think it still is. I have to be honest, I don't like the idea of anyone being paid to preach. This isn't preaching exactly, but it's close enough.
That said, I think South Park's gotten way too over-the-top. Worldly satire is great, but there comes a point where crude humor gets distasteful.
Honestly, Were I god, I would seriously throw people to hell for believing in me because its a safe bet. I'd feel insulted that that was their primary reason to believe. Cody's post put it in perspective quite well, when the god in that case asked "then what need have you of pascal's wager? Why did it enter into your thoughts? Why did you not think it blasphomous to think that the only reason anyone would believe something is because it is easiest and safest"?
Speaking on the relationship with god sanario. the majority of people who I have ever heard utter that phraze tend to deliver it with a smugness that makes me sick. Most tend to look down on you for not sharing the view they do, rather than extending any amount of respect. I personally don't understand how that viewpoint makes sense from a linguistics or logical perspective, but if it brings you comfort, All power to you.
Lmfao Cody! Thanks for the laugh. Now, I shall go get some cake. Ha!
That's why you're not God, Stormwing. God understands the hearts and minds of his children. He does not twist their words, but the truths of our hearts which lie beyond them. We humans however are bound by our limited understanding of one another. Some of us are acutely aware of the world around us, and the feelings of those in it. Some of us put others first always, try to understand other people's perceptions and reserve judgment. But those people are not the majority. I'm sad to say I'm not always one of them, though I strive to one day reach that point. If every religion that ever was was truly the fiction of man, most of them would have been created, not for the subjegation of mankind, but to provide guidelines that sway humanity to not only live in peace, but also to reach its full potential. So many people look at the commandments and only see what we're asked "not" to do. But there are a lot more commandments telling us what we "should" do. And very little is lost by abiding by those precepts.
OK. for the sake of this post, let's pretend, for just a moment, that there's no doubt God exists, and everything you've ever said here is proven fact. God hasn't twisted our words, but we've sure twisted his, hence all the sects of Christianity, who, in some cases, believe the very opposite of what other sects believe. which one of them is correct, and how will you know it's you? How can you know that you haven't been preaching and discussing something god doesn't want you to? How can god sit there, up and heaven, watch us squabble over which one of us has really been saved, and who the fakers are, and still welcome all of his children into heaven when their earthly lives are through with them? And if the answer is love, then how is it that the people who have killed others in the name of this God can be welcomed into heaven when other people who don't believe, but are completely minding their own business cannot?
That's an extremely good question, Ocean Dream. I probably don't have all the answers - in fact I'm sure I won't, but I'll try.
There are many Churches, all preaching in the name of God. Most of them, maybe even all of them are the philosophies of man, mingled with scripture. Personally I believe the LDS church to be the most correct; however, that's my oppinion based on study, pondering, faith, prayer and the examples set by the church's leaders. There are plenty of wonderful people (Christian and otherwise) who will look at the LDS church and not think much of it. We invite such people into our midst with open arms and accept them even if they are not interested.
In the end, the religion is the sum of scripture and man's interpretation, inspired by God or man-made. It is the gospel and its teachings which transcend the concept of religion. It is our faith, and our deeds which make us "Christian". There is little point arguing on points of doctrine, because it rarely draws out posative emotions. Personally, I believe all religion has aspects of truth. I believe this is why so many religions have similar stories and precepts. One thing my church truly believes is when we die, we will be given a greater understanding of what is true and what is not. We still have our freedom to choose even then. (There's more to this, but that's the gist). The Atheist striving to live a moral and upstanding life is going to have a much easier time in the afterlife than the Christian who knew the commandments of God, but chose willingly to reject them. We are judged based on our hearts, our intentions, our actions and our faith. If the reasons you abhore religion are because of terrible experiences which drive you decisively away, that will be taken into consideration. Alternately, if you decide "oh, well all I need to do is wait and find out later" that too will be taken into account. We're judged not only on what we do, but why we do it. It's not a balance of the scales of justice, it's a justice in which all things are taken into account. Where Jesus Christ comes in is he is our redeamer. He took upon his hsoulders the sins of the world. He felt every emotion, every pain, every temptation and every sorrow we would feel as he prayed in the Garden of Gethsemane. His death on the cross was only the finale. He paid the price, because no matter how good we strive to be, we will inevitably fall short. That's one hard pill to swallow, but what it also means is our faith in him will make all the difference. His gift is one freely given. This is why our intentions and deeds matter somwaht. You can't say you believe in him, then turn around, rape, murder and steal. Not in his name; not in any name.
The reasons I always say those who murder in the name of God are not proper Christians is because Jesus taught a doctrine of peace and yes, love. We are to be kind to our fellow man, extend a hand of charity, be slow to anger, provide service, respect one another and not judge another's imperfections. Because we, all of us, have some degree of imperfection. We are to be smart of course. You wouldn't leave a pedifile with your 11-year-old daughter. That's a judgement we make, and it's a good one. But nor should we condemn that individual. Condemn the action, not the individual. That's a difficult thing to do, I admit. And I have to say, using the example I just gave, I'm not sure I could do it. In the bible, there's a passage which, paraphrased says "They will ask me (Jesus) "did we not prophecy in your name? Did we not work mighty miracles? Did we not preach your word?" And Jesus says "Depart from me, you who work iniquity. I never knew you.""
Jesus here is speaking of all those people who draw close to him with their words, who say they're doing things in his name, and for him, but are far from them in their hearts due to lust for power, greed, envy or other base emotions. Jesus also said "By their fruits shall ye know them," when he refers to those who truly follow him.
I think one of the hardest things about a religion is the time and effort it takes to really study the scriptures. Delving into them, learning to understand their meanings when we can, and having faith in personal inspiration when we can not. This is why it's so important for people of any religion to be strong examples of their religions virtues, not manipulate their religions in pursuit of human vices. If we see wicked people representing a religion, the normal response is to consider that religion evil.